Talk:Sherazin, Corpse Flower

Original to

This edit argues that because Sherazin appeared in WoW before it appeared in Hearthstone, it should not be treated as 'original to Hearthstone'. In theory this sounds right, except that the character was only added to WoW as part of a special and very clearly labelled cross-promotion launch event celebrating the upcoming release of Journey to Un'Goro in Hearthstone. The appearance was also temporary, existing for only three days (alongside a number of other characters debuting with Journey to Un'Goro), while the character will be a permanent addition to Hearthstone.

It is clear the character was designed for Hearthstone, and a brief promotional appearance in WoW in the lead up to its debut in that game doesn't contradict that. I'm open to discussion, but otherwise I'll be reverting the change. -- Taohinton (talk) 10:02, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, in the same way that the new Adapt mechanic was not based on the WoW mechanic seen during the micro-holiday despite being released there first. - jerodast (talk) 17:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Image for respawn effect

The notes describe an alternative icon to the normal lightning bolt for triggers. If anyone finds it convenient to get a nice screenshot of the effect in action, it would be appreciated! - jerodast (talk) 17:35, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Added screenshots showing the effect. TheGamer765 (talk) 18:20, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Awesome! I borrowed one for the Notes section, it complements the description perfectly. - jerodast (talk) 23:11, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Revival of a copy

Barnes 1/1 Sherarzin revives as a 5/3 87.158.144.95 22:06, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Nothing special about that. The new Sherazin is a new minion, so it doesn't have any attached Enchantments or otherwise remembered state. --Patashu (talk) 23:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Interaction with death triggered abilities

In answer to User:BigHugger's edit note question, N'Zoth has been confirmed to treat Sherazin as if it died, so I suspect any other death triggers will treat it the same. The issue with Getaway Kodo and Sherazin's DR is they are both trying to prevent death by doing something different to the minion, and they can't both happen at the same time. Any other triggers that tried to move it (like if you somehow got Malorne's Deathrattle on it) would probably have the same problem, but afaik there aren't any. - jerodast (talk) 06:10, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Consider all the below as thinking out loud. I haven't confirmed any of my theories, just trying to make sense of what we know so far and extrapolate that to other cards.

For N'Zoth, my guess is that somewhere in the handling of death the minion that dies is copied to a scratchpad that can be used if and when N'Zoth is played later in the game. That is a fairly simple bit of code which does not require the dead minion to still be in game in whatever state. It is also unrelated to the handling of deathrattles, as cards such as Feign Death do not allow N'Zoth to summon additional copies, and silencing the deathrattle before killing it does not prevent N'Zoth from summoning it.

For the handling of the actual deathrattles, apparently order of play is relevant (which should surprise nobody). And depending on what the deathrattle does, it might need the dead minion to (a) still be dead, (b) still be on the battlefield, and (c) not be transformed to another minion. (Okay, I guess (c) is already implied by (a) and (b).)

Example: Effigy. When triggered before the deathrattle of Sherazin, I'd expect that you get a random 4-mana minion; after that the original Sherazin is still dead in play so it can still transform to a seed. OTOH, had Effigy been played later you would first get a seed; whether than Effigy still triggers depends on whether it needs to inspect the dead body.

Example: Duplicate. If the secret triggers first, it generates two new Sherazin cards in your hand without affecting the dead minion, so the Sherazin deathrattle can still trigger and transform to a seed. But if the Sherazin is processed first, then what would Dupliicate do? Would you still get two Sherazins in hand? Or perhaps two seeds (and in that case, would they be playable at all)? Or would the Duplicate simply not trigger because there is no corpse it can inspect to determine which cards to put in your hand?

And finally, Redemption. Again, if the secret was played first it could simply resummon Sherazin with 1 health; this is a resummon, not a transform, so the dead Sherazin is still in play and can transform to a seed. Had Sherazin been played first, it would be a seed before the secret can tigger - now what will happen?

I must admit that a lot of these questions are probably similar to the interactions you can get between these secrets and return to hand deathrattles (Anub'arak The Skeleton Knight, the Spirit Echo enchantment) or the Malorne]'s return to deck deathrattle you already mention. I'll have to see if there are any notes on those pages that can help me further (later, gotta run now).

And otherwise, I guess I'll just have to keep watching all those highlight YouTube channels until I happen upon the answers... :) -- BigHugger (talk) 09:48, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, these are all good tests to run/observe :) One thing I'm pretty sure is true is that when death triggers are queued up, they have a reference to the minion that died, so even if that minion is transformed later it will still know the one that actually died. The only time it should be relevant that the minion was changed is when the effect is supposed to do something TO that minion, not just "read" something ABOUT that minion, such as its identity or its mana cost. So, my guesses:

• Effigy would know the cost of the Sherazin minion that died, and correctly summon a 4-cost one.
• Duplicate would know the identity of the Sherazin minion, and correctly generate copies.
• Redemption would know the identity of the Sherazin minion, and correctly summon a new copy.

However, Getaway Kodo tries to return the minion itself to your hand, not a copy. Its effect probably checks your condition (b), whereas the others do not since nothing bad will happen if they copy/read from a minion that has left the battlefield.

By the way, you are exactly right that there is a Zone for things that have died (called the graveyard, at least by the folks working on HearthSim), which acts as a scratchpad for N'Zoth et al. N'Zoth/Sherazin actually threw me for awhile, since I thought I remembered the logs I've looked at saying that existing entities were CHANGED to be in that zone. But either I'm misremembering or the logs were wrong, because a little research informs me that N'Zoth could summon Malorne & Anub'arak too. So, apparently minions are COPIED to that zone when they die, while other affects can still hit the one on board. The more you know!

- jerodast (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2017 (UTC)